- Wed Jun 17, 2009 4:22 pm
#123642
I mean seriously guys, WHY IS IT SO POPULAR!?
*If an admin wants to put this in the FAQ's, I think it would be a good idea*
Ok, Lemme go over the 'pros' that I'm aware of
LS/RS/SE Integras are plentiful, so you can get a B18B1 bottom end cheaply,
Head bolt pattern is shared from what I've read, so you can nearly essentially 'slap' a Vtec head onto them,
The B18 bottom end along with the Vtec head 'gives the best of both worlds' as far as torque down low, and hp up top
But the cons are MASSIVE and often over-looked information since there are so many 'noobs' asking about the LS/Vtec.
So PLEASE read carefully the following:
B18A, B18B, and the B20* Family of motors have a 6900-7200 RPM fuel-cut, and yet many people seem to believe they can safely rev this same bottom end to 9000+RPM in LS/Vtec setups.
Well, Here's the 'truth'. The 'ls' lets just call them, Family of motors have a low redline for a reason, a very simple reason "They were NEVER designed to spin THAT fast"
The rods themselves, as well as much of the rotating assembly is MUCH heavier than that of a B16/B18C motor. These motors were DESIGNED with light, precisely engineered internal components that allow for this high rate of travel *ala 7000+RPM*
Also, keep in mind, there are probably a very steep ratio of 'LS' motors to Vtec powered twin-cam motors, Meaning that they made ALOT more LS motors than any Vtec motor ever to come state-side. Please think about the 'quality' of a hand-built Cobra Mustang motor, opposed to a regular mustang, The internal components of the cobra are forged from the factory, and are all basically in direct contact with humans, now think about how many Cobra's you have heard of blowing headgasket, then think about how many 3.8 liter mustangs you've seen with their hoods up. For those of you who still don't understand, "The LS motors were DESIGNED AND BUILT to be MASS PRODUCED, while ALL DOHC Vtec motors are essentially 'performance' motors in limited run honda/acura products, which do think used more expensive components and was assembled by hand (All B18C5's were hand built for example) or under closer supervision?
This means once you have done your LS/Vtec conversion you are spinning heavy components well past their limits, and typically you do not do this conversion for MPG, so chances are you will be pushing them past their limits FREQUENTLY. This factor often leads to damaged rods, pistons, and more commonly chewed up piston rings because of the stroke of the LS motor which can in-turn wreck your block anyways.
So that addresses the first BIG con IMHO
The next issue often 'skipped' is the ECU/Compression/Tuning. I've seen CONSTANT LS/Vtec setups running B16/B18C1 ECU's and asking why they aren't running right, or are having other issues. Please please PLEASE realize that nearly ALL DOHC Vtec motors have a compression ratio above 10.0:1, while LS/Vtec's have often 9.5:1 or below depending upon the combination used. Now many noobs will ask 'what does that mean', well that means that the factory honda ECU you are trying to use in your LS/Vtec is assuming it is attached to its associated motor, not your fraken-thing, so it is trying to fuel/spark your car according to a DIFFERENT engine, with different internals, compression, and more...
So, this leads to the next 'point' "Well I put type-r pistons in my motor to bump the compression, so my shits fast" Ok, thats great, but then we see the post a week later "My motor blew, LS/Vtec with a B18C1 ECU"
Your ECU was designed for a 10.0:1 compression ratio, while your fraken motor now has a CR of 11.5:1, so your dumb-ass probably kept feeding your motor regular fuel since it has a B18 bottom-end, and your motor detonated itself into oblivion, or even with premium and no tuning, it can/will still blow itself up, it is quite literally 'just a matter of time', and you are still running those grenades of LS Rods at 9000RPM attached to those shiny new pistons.
OK, so lets say for those few months when everything seems to be running great, and suddenly you line up with my beater LS powered coupe and I spank your ass, please realize, your transmission is most likely the same as mine, and the LS transmission was designed for the LS motor, not your franken crap. So as I wave fairwell to you while I pull away with 20-30 less HP, realize you still have $600+ ahead of you before you will be able to out pace my piece of shit. (and no, I'm not kidding, my basic bolt-on LS Swapped EJ can beat LS/Vtec powered integras, dunno how it would fair against something lighter ;-) )
Another item that was just brought to my attention (I knew I was forgetting something) was the oil squirters...
Back to the whole 'spinning at 9000RPM' thing, Factory Honda Vtec bottom ends have oil squirters in the block, that essentially spray the bottom of the pistons with oil for cooling and lubrication, a feature that the trusty LS lacks because if was not designed to spin to 9000RPM or make above its factory 142hp. This amplifies the issues with chewing up piston rings, because essentially, near red line, your motor will be struggling to keep itself fully lubricated because of this lack of oil squirters, so your shiney new rings, on your shiney new pistons will be happily destroying your side-walls internally without you even realizing it. I really have no idea if there is ANY simple 'solution' to this problem when building one correctly, but this is another factor to keep in mind, a big one that rather highlights the reliability problem with LS/Vtec builds.
SO, Cliffs notes:
If you are on a very tight budget, and feel that LS/Vtec is the route you choose to take, please keep in mind all that I have mentioned above, including the link at the top for how to CORRECTLY build one RELIABLY.
Here is a little 'cheat-sheet' for those who are budgeting:
*FROM MY EXPERIANCE*
Full LS swaps can be had for sub $800 easily, I've purchased 2 COMPLETE swaps for sub $600 in good running condition. I've found full LS motors for $250-300 all day long, and LS transmission are rarely over $400.
Full GSR swaps can be had for sub $2000, I've seen them go for as low as $1500 several times.
B16 and GSR Transmissions are typically between $500-700 depending upon condition and what all is included
So, how about an LS/Vtec?
http://swedishfa.tripod.com/nothing.html *some content borrowed from this link*
* B18a block: $160
* B16a head: $400
* Axles: $100
* ECU: $100
* B-series Mounts: $100
* CTR pistons and wrist pins: $155
* CTR rings: $86
* Block bore, clean, and rod bolt install: $185
* ARP Rod bolts: $35
* New water pump: $45
* New timing belt: $38
* Two Oil seals from Acura: $32
* Head Gasket: $45
* Rod machine and new piston install: $140
* LS/VTEC parts: $55
* Other gaskets: $35
* Main and Rod Bearings: $120
So, if you have a lowly SOHC in your car, and you want to do a half-way decent LS/Vtec, you are looking at $1800-2000 and That's not even including the transmission, and this shopping list is for a 'budget' NA build.....................
Now for kicks and giggles, My current EJ has cost me less than $1500 including my LS motor swap, and you'd better ****ing believe that $500 worth of spray in my coupe will wax an LS/Vtec powered one. Another budget comparison is my $500 motorswap with $1500 budget for a set of forged pistons/rods and a decent turbo kit would again, annihlate any LS/Vtec powered car $ for $.
Conditions in which LS/Vtec would be a GOOD idea:
1) You already have a B16 swap and want more torque and have a $500-1000 budget
2) You already have an LS swap and you have come across a B16 VERY cheaply and have a $500-1000 budget
3) You have a HUGE budget, and want to make a high compression monster without ripping apart a perfectly good GSR or ITR motor.
so Cliffs notes:
Example: If you have a stock 1993 civic DX, and are asking about LS/Vtec swaps and you are on ANY kind of budget, Get an LS swap and start there, or prepare to blow up many MANY motors.
Once again, not mine, but very useful. A must know for these motors. Im not saying dont build the motor, just make sure you are doing it right.
STICKY PLEASE
*If an admin wants to put this in the FAQ's, I think it would be a good idea*
Ok, Lemme go over the 'pros' that I'm aware of
LS/RS/SE Integras are plentiful, so you can get a B18B1 bottom end cheaply,
Head bolt pattern is shared from what I've read, so you can nearly essentially 'slap' a Vtec head onto them,
The B18 bottom end along with the Vtec head 'gives the best of both worlds' as far as torque down low, and hp up top
But the cons are MASSIVE and often over-looked information since there are so many 'noobs' asking about the LS/Vtec.
So PLEASE read carefully the following:
B18A, B18B, and the B20* Family of motors have a 6900-7200 RPM fuel-cut, and yet many people seem to believe they can safely rev this same bottom end to 9000+RPM in LS/Vtec setups.
Well, Here's the 'truth'. The 'ls' lets just call them, Family of motors have a low redline for a reason, a very simple reason "They were NEVER designed to spin THAT fast"
The rods themselves, as well as much of the rotating assembly is MUCH heavier than that of a B16/B18C motor. These motors were DESIGNED with light, precisely engineered internal components that allow for this high rate of travel *ala 7000+RPM*
Also, keep in mind, there are probably a very steep ratio of 'LS' motors to Vtec powered twin-cam motors, Meaning that they made ALOT more LS motors than any Vtec motor ever to come state-side. Please think about the 'quality' of a hand-built Cobra Mustang motor, opposed to a regular mustang, The internal components of the cobra are forged from the factory, and are all basically in direct contact with humans, now think about how many Cobra's you have heard of blowing headgasket, then think about how many 3.8 liter mustangs you've seen with their hoods up. For those of you who still don't understand, "The LS motors were DESIGNED AND BUILT to be MASS PRODUCED, while ALL DOHC Vtec motors are essentially 'performance' motors in limited run honda/acura products, which do think used more expensive components and was assembled by hand (All B18C5's were hand built for example) or under closer supervision?
This means once you have done your LS/Vtec conversion you are spinning heavy components well past their limits, and typically you do not do this conversion for MPG, so chances are you will be pushing them past their limits FREQUENTLY. This factor often leads to damaged rods, pistons, and more commonly chewed up piston rings because of the stroke of the LS motor which can in-turn wreck your block anyways.
So that addresses the first BIG con IMHO
The next issue often 'skipped' is the ECU/Compression/Tuning. I've seen CONSTANT LS/Vtec setups running B16/B18C1 ECU's and asking why they aren't running right, or are having other issues. Please please PLEASE realize that nearly ALL DOHC Vtec motors have a compression ratio above 10.0:1, while LS/Vtec's have often 9.5:1 or below depending upon the combination used. Now many noobs will ask 'what does that mean', well that means that the factory honda ECU you are trying to use in your LS/Vtec is assuming it is attached to its associated motor, not your fraken-thing, so it is trying to fuel/spark your car according to a DIFFERENT engine, with different internals, compression, and more...
So, this leads to the next 'point' "Well I put type-r pistons in my motor to bump the compression, so my shits fast" Ok, thats great, but then we see the post a week later "My motor blew, LS/Vtec with a B18C1 ECU"
Your ECU was designed for a 10.0:1 compression ratio, while your fraken motor now has a CR of 11.5:1, so your dumb-ass probably kept feeding your motor regular fuel since it has a B18 bottom-end, and your motor detonated itself into oblivion, or even with premium and no tuning, it can/will still blow itself up, it is quite literally 'just a matter of time', and you are still running those grenades of LS Rods at 9000RPM attached to those shiny new pistons.
OK, so lets say for those few months when everything seems to be running great, and suddenly you line up with my beater LS powered coupe and I spank your ass, please realize, your transmission is most likely the same as mine, and the LS transmission was designed for the LS motor, not your franken crap. So as I wave fairwell to you while I pull away with 20-30 less HP, realize you still have $600+ ahead of you before you will be able to out pace my piece of shit. (and no, I'm not kidding, my basic bolt-on LS Swapped EJ can beat LS/Vtec powered integras, dunno how it would fair against something lighter ;-) )
Another item that was just brought to my attention (I knew I was forgetting something) was the oil squirters...
Back to the whole 'spinning at 9000RPM' thing, Factory Honda Vtec bottom ends have oil squirters in the block, that essentially spray the bottom of the pistons with oil for cooling and lubrication, a feature that the trusty LS lacks because if was not designed to spin to 9000RPM or make above its factory 142hp. This amplifies the issues with chewing up piston rings, because essentially, near red line, your motor will be struggling to keep itself fully lubricated because of this lack of oil squirters, so your shiney new rings, on your shiney new pistons will be happily destroying your side-walls internally without you even realizing it. I really have no idea if there is ANY simple 'solution' to this problem when building one correctly, but this is another factor to keep in mind, a big one that rather highlights the reliability problem with LS/Vtec builds.
SO, Cliffs notes:
If you are on a very tight budget, and feel that LS/Vtec is the route you choose to take, please keep in mind all that I have mentioned above, including the link at the top for how to CORRECTLY build one RELIABLY.
Here is a little 'cheat-sheet' for those who are budgeting:
*FROM MY EXPERIANCE*
Full LS swaps can be had for sub $800 easily, I've purchased 2 COMPLETE swaps for sub $600 in good running condition. I've found full LS motors for $250-300 all day long, and LS transmission are rarely over $400.
Full GSR swaps can be had for sub $2000, I've seen them go for as low as $1500 several times.
B16 and GSR Transmissions are typically between $500-700 depending upon condition and what all is included
So, how about an LS/Vtec?
http://swedishfa.tripod.com/nothing.html *some content borrowed from this link*
* B18a block: $160
* B16a head: $400
* Axles: $100
* ECU: $100
* B-series Mounts: $100
* CTR pistons and wrist pins: $155
* CTR rings: $86
* Block bore, clean, and rod bolt install: $185
* ARP Rod bolts: $35
* New water pump: $45
* New timing belt: $38
* Two Oil seals from Acura: $32
* Head Gasket: $45
* Rod machine and new piston install: $140
* LS/VTEC parts: $55
* Other gaskets: $35
* Main and Rod Bearings: $120
So, if you have a lowly SOHC in your car, and you want to do a half-way decent LS/Vtec, you are looking at $1800-2000 and That's not even including the transmission, and this shopping list is for a 'budget' NA build.....................
Now for kicks and giggles, My current EJ has cost me less than $1500 including my LS motor swap, and you'd better ****ing believe that $500 worth of spray in my coupe will wax an LS/Vtec powered one. Another budget comparison is my $500 motorswap with $1500 budget for a set of forged pistons/rods and a decent turbo kit would again, annihlate any LS/Vtec powered car $ for $.
Conditions in which LS/Vtec would be a GOOD idea:
1) You already have a B16 swap and want more torque and have a $500-1000 budget
2) You already have an LS swap and you have come across a B16 VERY cheaply and have a $500-1000 budget
3) You have a HUGE budget, and want to make a high compression monster without ripping apart a perfectly good GSR or ITR motor.
so Cliffs notes:
Example: If you have a stock 1993 civic DX, and are asking about LS/Vtec swaps and you are on ANY kind of budget, Get an LS swap and start there, or prepare to blow up many MANY motors.
Once again, not mine, but very useful. A must know for these motors. Im not saying dont build the motor, just make sure you are doing it right.
STICKY PLEASE
1986 Nissan 300zx
1980 Kawasaki KZ650
2014 Kawasaki Ninja 300
1980 Kawasaki KZ650
2014 Kawasaki Ninja 300