B16, B18, B20
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By Greasedmonkey
#123642 I mean seriously guys, WHY IS IT SO POPULAR!?

*If an admin wants to put this in the FAQ's, I think it would be a good idea*

Ok, Lemme go over the 'pros' that I'm aware of

LS/RS/SE Integras are plentiful, so you can get a B18B1 bottom end cheaply,

Head bolt pattern is shared from what I've read, so you can nearly essentially 'slap' a Vtec head onto them,

The B18 bottom end along with the Vtec head 'gives the best of both worlds' as far as torque down low, and hp up top


But the cons are MASSIVE and often over-looked information since there are so many 'noobs' asking about the LS/Vtec.


So PLEASE read carefully the following:

B18A, B18B, and the B20* Family of motors have a 6900-7200 RPM fuel-cut, and yet many people seem to believe they can safely rev this same bottom end to 9000+RPM in LS/Vtec setups.

Well, Here's the 'truth'. The 'ls' lets just call them, Family of motors have a low redline for a reason, a very simple reason "They were NEVER designed to spin THAT fast"

The rods themselves, as well as much of the rotating assembly is MUCH heavier than that of a B16/B18C motor. These motors were DESIGNED with light, precisely engineered internal components that allow for this high rate of travel *ala 7000+RPM*

Also, keep in mind, there are probably a very steep ratio of 'LS' motors to Vtec powered twin-cam motors, Meaning that they made ALOT more LS motors than any Vtec motor ever to come state-side. Please think about the 'quality' of a hand-built Cobra Mustang motor, opposed to a regular mustang, The internal components of the cobra are forged from the factory, and are all basically in direct contact with humans, now think about how many Cobra's you have heard of blowing headgasket, then think about how many 3.8 liter mustangs you've seen with their hoods up. For those of you who still don't understand, "The LS motors were DESIGNED AND BUILT to be MASS PRODUCED, while ALL DOHC Vtec motors are essentially 'performance' motors in limited run honda/acura products, which do think used more expensive components and was assembled by hand (All B18C5's were hand built for example) or under closer supervision?

This means once you have done your LS/Vtec conversion you are spinning heavy components well past their limits, and typically you do not do this conversion for MPG, so chances are you will be pushing them past their limits FREQUENTLY. This factor often leads to damaged rods, pistons, and more commonly chewed up piston rings because of the stroke of the LS motor which can in-turn wreck your block anyways.

So that addresses the first BIG con IMHO

The next issue often 'skipped' is the ECU/Compression/Tuning. I've seen CONSTANT LS/Vtec setups running B16/B18C1 ECU's and asking why they aren't running right, or are having other issues. Please please PLEASE realize that nearly ALL DOHC Vtec motors have a compression ratio above 10.0:1, while LS/Vtec's have often 9.5:1 or below depending upon the combination used. Now many noobs will ask 'what does that mean', well that means that the factory honda ECU you are trying to use in your LS/Vtec is assuming it is attached to its associated motor, not your fraken-thing, so it is trying to fuel/spark your car according to a DIFFERENT engine, with different internals, compression, and more...

So, this leads to the next 'point' "Well I put type-r pistons in my motor to bump the compression, so my shits fast" Ok, thats great, but then we see the post a week later "My motor blew, LS/Vtec with a B18C1 ECU"

Your ECU was designed for a 10.0:1 compression ratio, while your fraken motor now has a CR of 11.5:1, so your dumb-ass probably kept feeding your motor regular fuel since it has a B18 bottom-end, and your motor detonated itself into oblivion, or even with premium and no tuning, it can/will still blow itself up, it is quite literally 'just a matter of time', and you are still running those grenades of LS Rods at 9000RPM attached to those shiny new pistons.

OK, so lets say for those few months when everything seems to be running great, and suddenly you line up with my beater LS powered coupe and I spank your ass, please realize, your transmission is most likely the same as mine, and the LS transmission was designed for the LS motor, not your franken crap. So as I wave fairwell to you while I pull away with 20-30 less HP, realize you still have $600+ ahead of you before you will be able to out pace my piece of shit. (and no, I'm not kidding, my basic bolt-on LS Swapped EJ can beat LS/Vtec powered integras, dunno how it would fair against something lighter ;-) )

Another item that was just brought to my attention (I knew I was forgetting something) was the oil squirters...
Back to the whole 'spinning at 9000RPM' thing, Factory Honda Vtec bottom ends have oil squirters in the block, that essentially spray the bottom of the pistons with oil for cooling and lubrication, a feature that the trusty LS lacks because if was not designed to spin to 9000RPM or make above its factory 142hp. This amplifies the issues with chewing up piston rings, because essentially, near red line, your motor will be struggling to keep itself fully lubricated because of this lack of oil squirters, so your shiney new rings, on your shiney new pistons will be happily destroying your side-walls internally without you even realizing it. I really have no idea if there is ANY simple 'solution' to this problem when building one correctly, but this is another factor to keep in mind, a big one that rather highlights the reliability problem with LS/Vtec builds.

SO, Cliffs notes:

If you are on a very tight budget, and feel that LS/Vtec is the route you choose to take, please keep in mind all that I have mentioned above, including the link at the top for how to CORRECTLY build one RELIABLY.

Here is a little 'cheat-sheet' for those who are budgeting:

*FROM MY EXPERIANCE*

Full LS swaps can be had for sub $800 easily, I've purchased 2 COMPLETE swaps for sub $600 in good running condition. I've found full LS motors for $250-300 all day long, and LS transmission are rarely over $400.
Full GSR swaps can be had for sub $2000, I've seen them go for as low as $1500 several times.
B16 and GSR Transmissions are typically between $500-700 depending upon condition and what all is included

So, how about an LS/Vtec?
http://swedishfa.tripod.com/nothing.html *some content borrowed from this link*

* B18a block: $160
* B16a head: $400
* Axles: $100
* ECU: $100
* B-series Mounts: $100
* CTR pistons and wrist pins: $155
* CTR rings: $86
* Block bore, clean, and rod bolt install: $185
* ARP Rod bolts: $35
* New water pump: $45
* New timing belt: $38
* Two Oil seals from Acura: $32
* Head Gasket: $45
* Rod machine and new piston install: $140
* LS/VTEC parts: $55
* Other gaskets: $35
* Main and Rod Bearings: $120

So, if you have a lowly SOHC in your car, and you want to do a half-way decent LS/Vtec, you are looking at $1800-2000 and That's not even including the transmission, and this shopping list is for a 'budget' NA build.....................

Now for kicks and giggles, My current EJ has cost me less than $1500 including my LS motor swap, and you'd better ****ing believe that $500 worth of spray in my coupe will wax an LS/Vtec powered one. Another budget comparison is my $500 motorswap with $1500 budget for a set of forged pistons/rods and a decent turbo kit would again, annihlate any LS/Vtec powered car $ for $.

Conditions in which LS/Vtec would be a GOOD idea:

1) You already have a B16 swap and want more torque and have a $500-1000 budget
2) You already have an LS swap and you have come across a B16 VERY cheaply and have a $500-1000 budget
3) You have a HUGE budget, and want to make a high compression monster without ripping apart a perfectly good GSR or ITR motor.

so Cliffs notes:

Example: If you have a stock 1993 civic DX, and are asking about LS/Vtec swaps and you are on ANY kind of budget, Get an LS swap and start there, or prepare to blow up many MANY motors.



Once again, not mine, but very useful. A must know for these motors. Im not saying dont build the motor, just make sure you are doing it right.
STICKY PLEASE
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By That One Dude
#130468 Good post.

However, I have some changes I would make if it were my post. I know I'm a noob on this site, but I've been building engines since I was 10. Honestly. And I'm a die hard Integra guy with way too much time on my hands so I read everything I can get my hands/computer hands on. I've also rebuilt numerous B18B1, and C1 engines (none to anything but factory +.25mm, but still).

The oil jets in the B18C1 and C5 are not for lubrication at all. They are strictly for piston cooling. End of story. The piston pins are lubricated by the oil passage within the piston rod which is fed by the crank pin (rod journal) oiling passage. Any oil that gets on the piston pin from the oil jets is totally superfluous.

The B16B has really heavy pistons IIRC. Just as heavy, if not heavier than the B18B1/A1 pistons. I think they are the P30 CTR pistons. the B16B was designed to spin super high RPMs just like the B18C-R.

I wouldn't necessarily call the non-VTEC B series engines ones that were designed to be mass produced. Sure the pistons aren't forged like the ITR pistons, but they ARE hyperutectic. Capable of withstanding SUPER high temperatures. And the rods, yeah, the rods are the weak point in the B18B1/A1. The B20B from the land of JDM has weak sleeves. The B20 in the USDM CR-Vs also have weak sleeves. So it's not always the rotating assy. that is at fault with the non-VTEC B series engines.

The B18C1 was never hand built. It was only the B18C-R and B18C5 engines that were hand built and hand ported from a factory B16A head.

The main reason people burn up their rings and throw rods in LS/VTEC engines utilizing factory internals is because most people don't know that you have to use the water and oil pumps from a 1.8L VTEC engine. I don't know about the part numbers on the B17A1 of the 1992-1993 GSR, but the part numbers between the ITR and 94-01 GSR water and oil pumps are the same.

The VTEC water pump must be used in order to prevent cavitation of the water in the pump itself. The VTEC water pump has a smaller diameter impeller with fewer blades and a larger diameter pulley so they spin at a slower rate than the non-VTEC water pump, thus preventing separation of the air in the water (cavitation). The non-VTEC water pump is efficient to about 7500RPM based on my research, but anything past that and you will burn up your pump bearings in a heartbeat.

The VTEC oil pump is a different ball game, however. It is a higher capacity pump that spins at a slower rate than the non-VTEC pump. Same reason to spin slower, cavitation, but with a higher displacement volume per revolution.

You essentially hit the nail right on the head with the ECU issues. One problem is that the injectors for all B series engines (yes, including ITR and CTR) are 240cc/min. Therefore you can't over fuel the engine except for maybe an insignificant amount. And that will just result in slightly lower MPG if anything. And yeah, same thing with the CR dealio. Hit the nail right on the head with the fuel grade choice, especially if the pistons are upgraded to ITR or even only GSR pistons. Simply because the stroke of the LS is 89mm and the GSR/ITR are 87.2mm. That 1.8mm makes a big difference in CR.

Putting ITR pistons in an LS engine with otherwise stock bottom end will net a CR of the following (roughly):

USDM ITR pistons. LS VTEC with B16/ITR head. 11.6:1
JDM ITR pistons. LS VTEC with B16/ITR head. 12.27:1
USDM ITR pistons. LS VTEC with GSR head. 11.94:1
JDM ITR pistons. LS VTEC with GSR head. 12.6:1

Not disputing anything you said, just adding CR numbers to put the name to the face, per se.

I hope I haven't overstepped my boundaries as a noob, but ChicagoMike knows I know some shit, and I'm not just some noob. I have an LS/VTEC build in the works right now. 84x89. Around 13:1 CR. Hopefully 250whp NA.
By hondahero89
#130473 i agree, most tuners rush to the ls vtec concept without really considering the long term effects. i think an ls is better suited under boost, with the appropiate precautions ofcourse.
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By That One Dude
#130474 LS is good under boost only if forged pistons and rods are used in conjunction with ARP rod and main bolts, IMHO. Not to mention, sleeving is a huge deal with the LS engine. I've seen B18B1s crack water jackets under 10lbs of boost. Idle-ing.

Without a proper sleeve job, the LS is really only good for a stock swap with minor bolt ons.

Granted, a gutted EG with a B18B1 with minor bolt ons will run a 13.8-14.1 1/4 all day around my neck of the woods. If not faster depending on the driver, tires, and transmission. The BIGGEST downfall of the LS swap is the LS transmission. The friggin' third gear is WAY longer than it needs to be...
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By Greasedmonkey
#130576 Your post was just fine. I was letting everyone know that just jumps on the ls/vtec band wagon thinking its a cheaper swap than a gsr or what not. You cant just slap one of these motors together and think it will be as good as a stock GSR or B16a.

I dont think ITR pistons are forged either. I have a set of US ITR and a set of JDM CTR pistons, neither look to be forged. And the P30 is the JDM B16a pistons. PCT is the B16b.
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By That One Dude
#130618 I was under the impression that the ITR pistons were forged. I'm not 100% on that matter though. It wouldn't surprise me if they are. But it also wouldn't surprise me if they aren't.

And yeah, I was looking for the piston code when I posted mine, but I couldn't find the exact one in the short search I did. You're right, PCT is the B16B and P30 is B16A.

Depending on your route, the LS/VTEC CAN be cheaper than the GSR swap if you simply buy an LS long block, sell the head (somehow) and buy a VTEC head (off set costs due to sales). There are too many variables when it comes to cost.
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By Greasedmonkey
#130724 stock LS bottom end with a vtec wont make use of the head properly. No reving over 7k. bottom end just cant handle it for long.
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By That One Dude
#130731 I know the LS bottom end won't handle 7K for long. That's why it's the redline. Most people driving an Integra LS aren't driving it like they stole it. I peg the fuel cut off in 1st-3rd daily because I have to in order to not get creamed getting on the highway here in Dallas.

It's always a good idea to build the bottom end. But most people can't afford that while they're putting together the LS/VTEC. Especially if it's a daily driver with the LS already in the car and the VTEC head is just an addition over the weekend.

I can build an engine in a day. That's a fair amount of work for a lot of people, myself included. It can be done, but it's not fun sometimes.

Bottom line, most people will just want to slap the head on the block (necessary prep work done and required parts used of course) and drive it. You "can" do that, within reason. I did it with another one of my Integra comrades once. His engine is still running strong roughly a year later. We used a stock GSR ECU, a VAFCII unit, and an AEM Wideband Lambda sensor.

I would NEVER recommend doing that though. He bought a chipped P28 about a week after we got done with the LS/VTEC conversion and got it tuned properly. It did run good before the tune, a little rich with a CEL for the knock sensor, but it ran pretty good. Now it runs better than a brand new B18C1. Literally.
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By Greasedmonkey
#130775 Yep, I know all about the traffic. Im in Houston.

Finally, someone knows that its not good to just slap a head on a motor. Yes, it will work but not great! needs to be build right the first time. Otherwise a gsr, itr or such is a better swap.

I moved away from a LS/VTEC build and went with a GSR one instead. I didnt want to deal with the ungirdle block, and having to get rods and pistons just to rev up past 7k. It just so happens that my GSR came with ITR pistons.
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By That One Dude
#131007 Yeah, I'm a big B-series guy. Actually right now I'm in the middle of rebuilding the head from a B16A3 from a 1995 del Sol. I hate valve springs...

The fact that the LS block isn't girdled isn't a bad thing, it's just not so much a GREAT thing. Ya dig? The block itself is plenty strong, especially if you have it sleeved (as with any engine). It's also WAY more readily available/cheaper than a full GSR swap and particularly more so than an ITR swap.

And you don't necessarily HAVE to get pistons and rods to go past 7K, it's just a REALLY good idea to. I also know a guy who has a basically stock bottom end LS (full Crower top end, non-VTEC), and he spins 8K. AND he does road racing, HPDE, auto-x, and some other form of racing that I can't remember righ now. BUT he has done a huge amount of tuning, balancing, etc.
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By Greasedmonkey
#131130 Main thing with the vtec motors is they are balanced from honda. The LS and B20 are not. Balancing helps go up over 7k.
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By That One Dude
#131138 GSR isn't as balanced as it could be. ITR on the other hand...holy shit... The friggin' pistons are within 5-8grams of each other (IIRC from another forum I used to be a part of). And the rods and crank are nothing to sneeze at either. Lightweight and strong as can be.
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By Greasedmonkey
#143489 ITR crank is heavier than a gsr.
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By That One Dude
#143496 You sure about that?