- Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:14 am
#45746
got this from our club's forums, www.hondaclub.com.ph. i think the guy got it from honda-tech 
THE BRAKE SYSTEM:
Pedal – Brake Booster – Master Cylinder – Hardlines – Prop. Valve – Hardlines – Brake Hoses – Caliper – Brake Pad – Rotor.
How to upgrade your stock system (simplest to most complex):
TIRES!!!!!!! Your car will ONLY stop as fast as your tires allow before they slip.
Spend the money on tires. ITR brakes on your ABS civic with shit tires will not stop as soon as stock brakes with great tires on your ABS civic because the ITR brakes will lock up the wheels.
First off, your stock rotors…unless you are a professional racer, worrying about CONSISTENT lap times in the wet with a full stripped racecar, you do NOT want drilled or slotted rotors. Your best rotors are blank cast iron rotors, such as OEM ones, or Brembo blanks. F1 cars do not have holes in their rotors, nor do rally cars. If you must have bling, go with slotted, but do not use drilled.
DO NOT use drilled rotors on any street Honda, this is why: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1437507
Pads
For pads, your OEM pads will work well, but ceramic pads will work better, and metal usually work best. If you have some cheap pads and drilled rotors, put back on your blank rotors and semi-ceramic pads, and you’ll brake better. Some people THINK drilled and slotted rotors work better, but this can be braking feel, opposed to the actual minimum 60-0 distance the car will do with ABS. The truth is that drilled and slotted rotors decrease surface area where the pad contacts. The same pressure from the piston to the pad is applied to less area, thus increasing the pressure. This means that drilled/slotted rotors heat up quicker. Now on a road this may be beneficial if you live in a cold area, but when your braking consistently, they are going to fade sooner, and those holes don't do crap for cooling, the rotor's surface and vents are going to provide a lot more cooling surface area than a few extra holes will net you. This so called improve braking CAN be percieved from the increased nose dive or lurch forward from a stronger initial bite onto a cross drilled rotor.
Wheel Style
Wheels can affect brakes. If for example you are using the >94-01 Integra brake setup with steelies and wheel covers, and you have metal pads on a track, your brakes could be fading. Using bigger, open spoked wheels can help let the heat radiate from the rotor and the caliper. Remember that both are heatsinks (the NSX has grooves in it to up surface area for this reason.) On a high speed driving day with triple digit temperatures, just letting the heat radiate out can cool the brakes faster, though I cant say how much because there are so many factors. Even the new Maybach 57S has more open wheels to cool its brakes, and even the old Taurus SHO had wheels designed like a pinwheel to pull air out of the brake area (yes this does work.)
Brake Booster
Upgrading your brake booster to the Integra (or maybe other) sized one has the only drawback of pushing the MC forward, so the hardlines aren't going to be in the same place as they were. So bending hardlines may be in order. What a bigger booster does is the same thing as increasing the pedal length, it increases the force on the MC linearly. Like it may may push on it 40% harder or so at any given point. So this basically makes your foot do less work. This is for people who have a really soft foot and want to make their car brake 'harder'. This can be done, but given the weight of the civic chassis, if you use the right sized MC with its paired caliper, no upgrade to the booster is necessary. It gets to the point where its just personal preference.
Master Cylinder relative to the Caliper
When you go to bigger caliper than use a larger piston, you are pushing more fluid through the brake lines. Therefore, you should want a larger master cylinder to push this more fluid.
General rule is…with your stock Civic DX, with the stock front calipers, keep your 13/16” MC. Any bigger and your pedal will be too stiff.
With EX/Si calipers, use a 7/8” MC from a 96-00 EX or 99-00 Si because of the more fluid going to a larger piston.
With ITR/Legend/Vigor/Accord V6 or Integra DA or DC calipers, use a 15/16” MC from a 98-01 Integra LS to accommodate for the even more fluid. Any smaller of a MC will cause the pedal swing to be too long.
With NSX or Legend GS calipers that have two pistons, or an aftermarket caliper with multiple pistons, you’ll want a 1” MC because of even more fluid required to push all the pistons. Get the 1” MC from a 98-01 Integra GSR or ITR MC as it bolts onto the EK brake booster.
When changing out a master cylinder, be sure to 'bing bleed' it first. This involves having fluid in the resovoir and pumping it unconnected to allow fluid to fill the internals. If you don't do this, you can still bleed the car, but you may be at it all day, since air pockets may stick in there. Research bing bleeding before you attempt this on your own.
A bigger caliper usually has a bigger bracket, thus holds a bigger surface area pad. This is generally better, and that’s why on a Civic, you swap on an Integra caliper, because the piston is bigger (more fluid, that doesn’t help) but the pad is bigger, and the piston disperses its energy over more area because of a larger contact surface with the shim.
Now, an ITR brake system on a Civic with crummy pads, drilled rotors, stainless lines and old, water absorbed brake fluid may stop just as well as an Integra GS brake system on a Civic with good tires, semi-ceramic pads, new fluid, and blank rotors. This page is telling how to upgrade, and yes, with the same other factors, you will have a shorter 60-0 distance and less brake fade. But there are many other factors of your brake system. If you have air bubbles in the lines, it will suck. So don’t complain if you went to an aftermarket kit, or a 5-lug full ITR suspension and don’t feel like it stops as well as your civic did bone stock. It may be worse, may be better, but I can’t tell you exactly HOW much worse or better it is without knowing everything specifically.
BRAKE SOFTLINES
Brake softlines, or brake hoses, are the rubbery hoses that can flex since the hardline is bolted to the frame and the brake moves up and down with the wheel. Honda uses rubber lines as OEM. They are very durable, and unless you take a box cutter to them directly, or are in an accident, this brake hose won't leak out the sides. They will leak if you get dirt on the contact point where the softline and hardline meet if you make a dirty mess when installing. Make sure the surfaces are clean. Now many people will attest to having a firmer brake pedal with stainless steel brake lines, and this is true. Though they flex from the hydraulic pedal same as rubber OEM hoses, they do flex less.
Stainless steel brake lines affect pedal feel, not 60-0 distances. They make the pedal a bit less soft because the stainless braided lines flex less than the OEM rubber hoses, and affect pedal modulation, but on an ABS equipped car, testing the before and after 60-0 distance will show no difference.
If you do choose to use steel braided brake hoses, be sure to get some that come with some kind of coating outside the steel mesh. Any track racer will tell you that this mesh can get dust and grit in it, and this can cause wear to the brake hose inside this steel mesh, possibly causing wear, or even a leak. When connecting a banjo bolt for any reason, be sure to always use a new crush washer. Crush washers are a one time use part. Its annoying to spend the money and change em out whenever a caliper is disconnected, but you don't want a leak. Any leak in the hydraulic brake system will squirt fluid at a high pressure, and thus less pressure is going to the actual brake to stop the car.
For more info, click :
OEM Honda Brakes
THE BRAKE SYSTEM:
Pedal – Brake Booster – Master Cylinder – Hardlines – Prop. Valve – Hardlines – Brake Hoses – Caliper – Brake Pad – Rotor.
How to upgrade your stock system (simplest to most complex):
TIRES!!!!!!! Your car will ONLY stop as fast as your tires allow before they slip.
Spend the money on tires. ITR brakes on your ABS civic with shit tires will not stop as soon as stock brakes with great tires on your ABS civic because the ITR brakes will lock up the wheels.
First off, your stock rotors…unless you are a professional racer, worrying about CONSISTENT lap times in the wet with a full stripped racecar, you do NOT want drilled or slotted rotors. Your best rotors are blank cast iron rotors, such as OEM ones, or Brembo blanks. F1 cars do not have holes in their rotors, nor do rally cars. If you must have bling, go with slotted, but do not use drilled.
DO NOT use drilled rotors on any street Honda, this is why: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1437507
Pads
For pads, your OEM pads will work well, but ceramic pads will work better, and metal usually work best. If you have some cheap pads and drilled rotors, put back on your blank rotors and semi-ceramic pads, and you’ll brake better. Some people THINK drilled and slotted rotors work better, but this can be braking feel, opposed to the actual minimum 60-0 distance the car will do with ABS. The truth is that drilled and slotted rotors decrease surface area where the pad contacts. The same pressure from the piston to the pad is applied to less area, thus increasing the pressure. This means that drilled/slotted rotors heat up quicker. Now on a road this may be beneficial if you live in a cold area, but when your braking consistently, they are going to fade sooner, and those holes don't do crap for cooling, the rotor's surface and vents are going to provide a lot more cooling surface area than a few extra holes will net you. This so called improve braking CAN be percieved from the increased nose dive or lurch forward from a stronger initial bite onto a cross drilled rotor.
Wheel Style
Wheels can affect brakes. If for example you are using the >94-01 Integra brake setup with steelies and wheel covers, and you have metal pads on a track, your brakes could be fading. Using bigger, open spoked wheels can help let the heat radiate from the rotor and the caliper. Remember that both are heatsinks (the NSX has grooves in it to up surface area for this reason.) On a high speed driving day with triple digit temperatures, just letting the heat radiate out can cool the brakes faster, though I cant say how much because there are so many factors. Even the new Maybach 57S has more open wheels to cool its brakes, and even the old Taurus SHO had wheels designed like a pinwheel to pull air out of the brake area (yes this does work.)
Brake Booster
Upgrading your brake booster to the Integra (or maybe other) sized one has the only drawback of pushing the MC forward, so the hardlines aren't going to be in the same place as they were. So bending hardlines may be in order. What a bigger booster does is the same thing as increasing the pedal length, it increases the force on the MC linearly. Like it may may push on it 40% harder or so at any given point. So this basically makes your foot do less work. This is for people who have a really soft foot and want to make their car brake 'harder'. This can be done, but given the weight of the civic chassis, if you use the right sized MC with its paired caliper, no upgrade to the booster is necessary. It gets to the point where its just personal preference.
Master Cylinder relative to the Caliper
When you go to bigger caliper than use a larger piston, you are pushing more fluid through the brake lines. Therefore, you should want a larger master cylinder to push this more fluid.
General rule is…with your stock Civic DX, with the stock front calipers, keep your 13/16” MC. Any bigger and your pedal will be too stiff.
With EX/Si calipers, use a 7/8” MC from a 96-00 EX or 99-00 Si because of the more fluid going to a larger piston.
With ITR/Legend/Vigor/Accord V6 or Integra DA or DC calipers, use a 15/16” MC from a 98-01 Integra LS to accommodate for the even more fluid. Any smaller of a MC will cause the pedal swing to be too long.
With NSX or Legend GS calipers that have two pistons, or an aftermarket caliper with multiple pistons, you’ll want a 1” MC because of even more fluid required to push all the pistons. Get the 1” MC from a 98-01 Integra GSR or ITR MC as it bolts onto the EK brake booster.
When changing out a master cylinder, be sure to 'bing bleed' it first. This involves having fluid in the resovoir and pumping it unconnected to allow fluid to fill the internals. If you don't do this, you can still bleed the car, but you may be at it all day, since air pockets may stick in there. Research bing bleeding before you attempt this on your own.
A bigger caliper usually has a bigger bracket, thus holds a bigger surface area pad. This is generally better, and that’s why on a Civic, you swap on an Integra caliper, because the piston is bigger (more fluid, that doesn’t help) but the pad is bigger, and the piston disperses its energy over more area because of a larger contact surface with the shim.
Now, an ITR brake system on a Civic with crummy pads, drilled rotors, stainless lines and old, water absorbed brake fluid may stop just as well as an Integra GS brake system on a Civic with good tires, semi-ceramic pads, new fluid, and blank rotors. This page is telling how to upgrade, and yes, with the same other factors, you will have a shorter 60-0 distance and less brake fade. But there are many other factors of your brake system. If you have air bubbles in the lines, it will suck. So don’t complain if you went to an aftermarket kit, or a 5-lug full ITR suspension and don’t feel like it stops as well as your civic did bone stock. It may be worse, may be better, but I can’t tell you exactly HOW much worse or better it is without knowing everything specifically.
BRAKE SOFTLINES
Brake softlines, or brake hoses, are the rubbery hoses that can flex since the hardline is bolted to the frame and the brake moves up and down with the wheel. Honda uses rubber lines as OEM. They are very durable, and unless you take a box cutter to them directly, or are in an accident, this brake hose won't leak out the sides. They will leak if you get dirt on the contact point where the softline and hardline meet if you make a dirty mess when installing. Make sure the surfaces are clean. Now many people will attest to having a firmer brake pedal with stainless steel brake lines, and this is true. Though they flex from the hydraulic pedal same as rubber OEM hoses, they do flex less.
Stainless steel brake lines affect pedal feel, not 60-0 distances. They make the pedal a bit less soft because the stainless braided lines flex less than the OEM rubber hoses, and affect pedal modulation, but on an ABS equipped car, testing the before and after 60-0 distance will show no difference.
If you do choose to use steel braided brake hoses, be sure to get some that come with some kind of coating outside the steel mesh. Any track racer will tell you that this mesh can get dust and grit in it, and this can cause wear to the brake hose inside this steel mesh, possibly causing wear, or even a leak. When connecting a banjo bolt for any reason, be sure to always use a new crush washer. Crush washers are a one time use part. Its annoying to spend the money and change em out whenever a caliper is disconnected, but you don't want a leak. Any leak in the hydraulic brake system will squirt fluid at a high pressure, and thus less pressure is going to the actual brake to stop the car.
For more info, click :
OEM Honda Brakes
