Springs, Struts, Swaybars, Bushings, Tower Braces & more
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By Greasedmonkey
#134446 Well I guess this thread is long overdue, as I've had several requests to make a thread like this.

Despite the myths that have been perpetuated since the mid-90's, camber kits ARE NOT required to prevent uneven tire wear after lowering a Honda. Even the very first issue of Super Street magazine in 1996 talks about installed camber kits to prevent tire wear.

Here's what really happens. When you lower your Honda, especially those with double-wishbone suspension, the camber angle goes negative, but the front tires also toe out. That toe-out condition is what is important. Toe-out will destroy the inside edge of a tire MUCH faster than negative camber ever will, because the tire scrubs on the pavement as it rolls in a toe-out condition.

So the myth has been that you need a camber kit to bring the camber angle (non-adjustable on most Hondas) back to stock specs. So you install a kit, take the car to alignment shop, and *poof* no more tire wear. However, what really happened is that along with adjusting the camber, the shop also adjusted the toe. That toe adjustment is what REALLY saved your tires.

The truth of the matter is that you have made your car handle worse with straight-up zero camber (or close to it). It is also truth you can easily run -1.5, -2, -3, even close to -4 camber up front with very little tire wear issues. You just need to be sure to keep your alignment in check and rotate your tires every 5K miles or so. You should get an alignment at least once a year, or better twice a year if possible. All you need to do is get the toe adjusted back to stock specs. If the shop tries to sell you a camber kit, tell them no, just adjust the toe. If they say they can't do the alignment until you get a camber kit, then leave immediately and go to another shop because that is 100% COMPLETELY FALSE!

So let's talk about the "cons" of camber kits:

1. Cost, plus the extra cost of alignments every time (could be $150 or more)
2. Usually made of sub-par materials that rust, corrode, and seize up
3. Greatly reduces suspension travel clearance, both UCA replacements and just the bolt-type kits
4. Bolt-type kits are nearly impossible to keep straight and adjust correctly without throwing caster off
5. UCA-replacement kits often use POS ball joints and have even more reduced clearance under the fender
6. Likely to slip out of adjustment, requiring another expensive alignment


What are the "pros" of camber kits? Well you can add MORE negative camber than what you get from lowered suspension geometry alone, which can be good for track use. Other than that, I can't really think of anything.

One exception: 96-00 Civic rear suspension has a pretty steep camber curve, and could benefit from slightly reducing the negative camber in the rear from what you get from a drop alone. I would recommend the replacement rear upper arm-type camber kits. Those use a turnbuckle-type adjustment that will not slip.


Here is some personal experiences:
And now for some personal experience. I lowered my car back in early 2002 and had about -2* camber up front. I've been on various suspension setups since then with anywhere from -1.5* to -2.8* front camber and have NEVER used a camber kit. Since then I've driven about 175K miles, and I've only been through 5 or 6 sets of tires. I've always used V or W-rated summer tires, and they always last 30K-35K miles.

Now I do get a slight bit of inner wear, but I attribute that to my worn stock bushings that aren't keeping the toe in check like they should. I have all new bushings waiting to go in and I expect tire wear to be even less than before. But my tires do usually wear down past the wear bars before the inner edge shows any belts, so at that time it's time to replace the tires anyway.

I know there are many others on this site who can relate similar personal experiences. I'll let them chime in if they want.

Well that's about all I can think of to say. Hopefully this will help to dispel some of the myths. Hopefully I can help some people keep some extra money instead of wasting it all on camber kits and expensive alignments.

once again, Not mine, just something I agree with.
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By SOHCivegra
#134468 I agree 98%. Coming from someone who deals alot with Auto-X the negative camber allows for some serious turning abilities.

One more down fall is straight line traction, being that your scrub radius is greatly moved from factory when you lower your vehicle. This doesn't allow the tire to fully contact the ground. This is why when you see "SERIOUS" drag racing FWD vehicles they are never super lowered up front.

Something to look out for the next time your at the track where there is a reputable FWD dragger. You won't see that 15 inch slick sitting at and angle.
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By teal_dx
#134470 I bought the hype back in the day... when I first lowered my hatch in 2001, I installed Ingalls camber kits up front. After a year or two I realized on my own that they were pointless for what I used the car for. I sold them on H-T and never regretted it. toe out is killer, any car that is lowered should be aligned once the springs settle :thumb:
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By Greasedmonkey
#134720 Between this one and the wheel offset one, I hope to answer questions people have. Im tired of seeing everyone say you need its when your car is lowered!

ITS A DAMN LIE!!!
By hondahero89
#134735 thanks, i was about to buy a front and rear kit for my hatch in the morning, lmao
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By hkspowers
#134739 Hell yeah man, I'm glad you said this also, I always thought you needed it, and I believed it so much that I actually had the idea in my head that people that did not have a camber kit and were lowered were doing it the ghetto way. Also this saves a shit ton of money as you mentioned earlier.


Thanks a million
:woot:
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By Graham
#134811 Haha maybe we need one on how you dont need to change your brake prop. valve or master cylinder when you do a rear disc swap too :P

So many stupid myths going about
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By suspendedHatch
#134818 I just want to be clear upfront that I agree wholeheartedly with the OP but I would like to make some clarifications and add some trivial information.

If you do a lot of freeway driving, zero circuit racing, and run touring or very cheap tires, then yes negative camber will wear your tires faster than camber that's within the stock specs. However, you pretty much have to be slammed (dropped 2 inches or more) until the camber gets negative enough to cause problems. Camber more negative than 2 degrees becomes problematic on the street.

Another benefit to a camber kit besides the one the OP mentioned is that you can even out your camber from one side to the other. Anyone who gets regular alignments knows that they are never even no matter how hard you try to get the ride heights perfect at each corner.

Nearly every camber kit on the market is pure crap. It says a lot that the best rear camber correction is the washer trick. Even trusted brands like Ingalls and Skunk2 are known to have problems with their kits when used on street cars. These kits can actually make your car into a ticking time bomb. Just imagine one of your front knuckles coming unhinged at freeway speeds. I've seen enough forum pics of this on forums online to warrant a public safety announcement.

Do not mistake toe wear for camber wear. Do not accept alignment techs preaching as gospel. They all think they know everything but they are very wrong about our cars. Camber wear means that your tires are sloped like an F1 cars tires. The inside diameter of the tread will be smaller than the outside. Toe wear by comparison will just be excessive inner tire wear. The negative camber determines where the excessive wear occurs, but it's the toe that is causing it!

Here is camber wear typical of a Mcpherson suspension (our cars are double wishbone and do not suffer from this problem).

Image

Notice it effects the whole tire. Toe wear by comparison only effects the inside edge.

I'd also like to point out that you can lower an EG by 1.3 inches and still be within camber specs. You will of course need to get the toe aligned however.
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By martino
#134919 i agree with Greasedmonkey and suspendedHatch. i've been runnin' on at least -2.4 camber on my front wheels, and when i took off the wheels when i replaced 'em, the tire wear was pretty even save for a couple of tires that were used for months on the rear right—'coz i take a lot of fast left turns on the way home from work :lol:
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By Apexracing
#142867
Graham wrote:Haha maybe we need one on how you dont need to change your brake prop. valve or master cylinder when you do a rear disc swap too :P

So many stupid myths going about



old topic but to clear this up, i swaped to a 95 ex sedan disk brake setup, i had a 95 dx, the brakes worked like shit until i swapped the master/booster from the 95 ex car. 15/16 master and twin diaphram booster ftw.
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By asianrob
#142870
Apexracing wrote:
Graham wrote:Haha maybe we need one on how you dont need to change your brake prop. valve or master cylinder when you do a rear disc swap too :P

So many stupid myths going about



old topic but to clear this up, i swaped to a 95 ex sedan disk brake setup, i had a 95 dx, the brakes worked like shit until i swapped the master/booster from the 95 ex car. 15/16 master and twin diaphram booster ftw.


when i did my brake swap i jsut changed the rear disc lines, etc.. but i didnt need to change prop valve or the master and it worked fine. and it was on a CX ftw :D

but i wanted to change it out later on down the road but i sold the car
By latinochino
#145316 Well I am pretty low in my S2000. I believe I am -1 camber in the front and -2.5 in the rear. Toe is as close at zero as possible.

I hav not yet seen tire wire. I of course rotate my tire with my non-staggard set up evey oil change. I have the same tires for a whole year and the tires look brand new.
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By Greasedmonkey
#145328 Its a bit different with S2ks. Ive seen some slammed ass ones with almot no negative camber.
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By 92redrocketHATCH
#152395 i know this will sound stupid, but can the stock toe be adjusted??? or do i need to buy an adjustable toe??? and im slammin my dx hatch with some ksports(2.5 in front, 2 in back), so do i still not need a camber kit???

help would be much appreciated :hehe: